Curse

cthulhu reborn · May 25, 2011, 06:55 PM // 18:55

It's not so much that warriors are useless but that they aren't asked for in virtually anything. Sure, you could use a warrior, but let's be honest...how often do you see LFG need warrior in this game? Since the early days of terratanks, that hasn't been the case.

The problem is simply that whatever a warrior can, another class can do it better or more efficiently. KD is certainly nice but a class should be more than a one-trick-wonder. The warrior doesn't have a real role. When you want to do damage, you could use a warrior but people would prefer an ele or SoS Splinter/Barrage etc. Healers are Monks or N/Rt. Tanks...well that can be done by dervishes, sins and even minions. God knows that when I build a team for a mission I only ever use Jora because she looks hot and when I don't care about that I don't even use a warrior....because you don't need one. Anything a warrior can do can basically be done better by another class.

So to me, it's not that the warrior is useless...it's just that every other class can perform the needed roles better. Sure, there may be one or two exceptions to this but not enough for people to worry about having a warrior.

Xenomortis · May 25, 2011, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

He is partially right. While warriors are effective at damage, like you say, when supported by casters, they also make effective frontline aggroers. Since mobs die so fast with the powercreep we have nowadays, the most critical time for the monk(s)/healer(s) of a party are the initial aggro. A well armored prof like a warrior is far more proficient at running in and taking the initial "spike" (thus making life easier on the monks than if, say, a mesmer took the initial aggro).

Their durability is not so much to enable the rest of the team to 'not die', but to allow the Warrior to dish out his damage.
Remember that; the post I was responding to clearly forgot.

Kurosaki129 · May 25, 2011, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Their durability is not so much to enable the rest of the team to 'not die', but to allow the Warrior to dish out his damage.
Remember that; the post I was responding to clearly forgot.

you're missing the point.

Having a strong frontline increases the survivability of the group, taking the attention of the mob and focusing it on only the warrior/frontline, rather than the squishies.

Xenomortis · May 25, 2011, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurosaki129

Having a strong frontline increases the survivability of the group, taking the attention of the mob and focusing it on only the warrior/frontline, rather than the squishies.

Sort of; Protection Prayers allows anyone to tank any flurry of hits on initial aggro if you require that. After that, it's simple enough to keep everyone alive so long as less than half the team are taking note-worthy damage.
Properly constructed caster balls also pack a lot of inherent mitigation; mitigation typically absent on melee characters (not quite true in PvE with Save Yourselves being around).

The 'tanking' aspect of a Warrior certainly helps, but it's not why you bring him.

Essence Snow · May 25, 2011, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Untill other profs are addressed [para (both pve and pvp)..ranger...ele (pve)] warriors deserve to be on the back burner..i.e. not worth harking over

TheRakeman · May 25, 2011, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudemonkey

I was going to say this. My PvE warrior regularly causes mobs of monsters to evaporate under his Mark of Pain + Hundred Blades or at least Hundred Blades + Whirlwind Attack. Given a good ball of guys, which is pretty easy to do, and he's doing a couple hundred points of damage per second.

If I know I'm going up against a small number of tough foes, Dragon Slash + For Great Justice and I'm probably doing around 120 damage per second, with a good chunk of that ignoring armor due to high strength. Swords rock, IMO, and I could squeeze another 20% DPS out of him if I customized his sword.

I actually hold the opposite opinion from the OP ... a correctly played warrior feels almost comically overpowered. I've been playing Guild Wars for around 7 months and I've been playing warriors almost exclusively, and I'm JUST starting to feel like I'm getting the hang of it. It's an easy class to play suboptimally.

I've started to dabble in Earthshaking, and it's a lot of fun but I feel I need some more work before I'm really good. I haven't tried axes yet outside of messing around in Presearing. Maybe for my dude's first birthday I'll get him an axe

I think a lot of people underestimate the curve of playing a warrior well. Warrior seems to have an interesting learning curve - very easy to play, very difficult to play well. I too have been playing almost exclusively warrior lately and am still surprising myself with all the subtleties that make quite a difference when you figure them out, and still refining certain things like perfect timing for KD chains. Axe could definitely use some help in PvE, it's lame that Warriors Endurance Axe is really the only effective Axe build (although admittedly, it is quite the build for AoE damage, and being able to spam power attack all day is enjoyable).

Quote:

Originally Posted by garethporlest18

The only thing I'd complain about is the fact we don't have enough good non adrenal attack skills. Power Attack is the only thing that I'd bother with and I rather have a condition giving non adrenal skill that isn't Tactics based because who the hell uses tactics.

Maybe warriors should get an inherent benefit from Tactics, or something to make Tactics worth using. The only problem, of course, is that anything you do to tactics might get abused by a warrior secondary, which wouldn't be the goal. Maybe some synergy with strength, I don't know. Or just leave it dead because warriors are fine without it (and then I wont have to go buy 8 tactics shields

)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Sort of; Protection Prayers allows anyone to tank any flurry of hits on initial aggro if you require that. After that, it's simple enough to keep everyone alive so long as less than half the team are taking note-worthy damage.
Properly constructed caster balls also pack a lot of inherent mitigation; mitigation typically absent on melee characters (not quite true in PvE with Save Yourselves being around).

The 'tanking' aspect of a Warrior certainly helps, but it's not why you bring him.

Well said. If a warrior is sacrificing damage for tanking ability, he is most likely a bad warrior (unless the team has some reason they really, really want a warrior tank, but I can't think of one).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

Untill other profs are addressed [para (both pve and pvp)..ranger...ele (pve)] warriors deserve to be on the back burner..i.e. not worth harking over

Paragon should stay unused in PvP. I can't imagine many PvP players would disagree with that. They are an inherently flawed concept and would need a near total rework, which Anet said they wont do anymore. In PvE, they have the imbagon, and I can't see paragons possibly getting a build better than that unless you make the paragons blatantly overpowered in every way.

Ranger and ele definitely need something though, no arguments at all there.

Crom The Pale · May 25, 2011, 09:17 PM // 21:17

I would suggest that Warriors could use a 'tweek' but not an over powering rebuild.

Keep in mind that the AI has changed a great deal from when GW first came out. Now most mobs will simply ignore a war and focus on low armor casters, saving only blocking or blind/hex skills to use versus wars.

In normal mode play few monsters live long enough for a war to build adren, so as each mob is cleared the war feels like he hasn't done anything.

In hard mode the anti melee hate tends to pop up more often not to mention kiting which can be a problem for wars in PvE that are not used to requiring snares.

Some minor tweeking could make a better war for PvE, though I don't know if these would need to be split for PvP.

Frenzy = For 5 seconds you attack 33% faster. Recharge 10 seconds.
(this makes it both useable but not permanent and will not require any further penalty. Adding in PvE only skills and you can keep it up full time in PvE.)

Decapitate - remove the penalty of loosing all energy.

Flourish - Add in - Removed 1 condition and 1 hex for each attack skill recharged.

Hamstring - Reduce cost to 5 energy and make unblockable ( max duration at 10 seconds)

Primal Rage - change penatly to only effect physical damage taken.

Shove - remove condition on stance removal and bonus damage.

Warrior's Cunning - reduce recharge to 20 seconds, limit it to next 1-5 attacks.

Change Strength to add 1 second to any stance duration for every 3 ranks in Strength. Change sundering bonus to effect all attacks rather then just attack skills.

Not sure if these would be concidered over powered but I think most of them would be justified and usable.

NerfHerder · May 25, 2011, 09:35 PM // 21:35

I think they should give the PvE Warrior a better IAS, and thats about all I would change.

In PvP the Warrior is one of, if not the most, balanced class in the game and the Dervish and Assassin should be tweaked to a similar standard. (ie. consequences for IAS, punishment for miss timed skills, etc.)

Aside from a few seemingly dartboard buffs/nerfs, I doubt the Warrior will recieve any skill updates. More than likely you will see changes to non-Imbagon Paragons, Smite Monks, and hopefully Ranger and Ele Buffs.

king cougor · May 25, 2011, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

Untill other profs are addressed [para (both pve and pvp)..ranger...ele (pve)] warriors deserve to be on the back burner..i.e. not worth harking over

Completely agree, even though i love my warrior! Warriors are still good in pve and pvp! You just have to know how to use them

Xenomortis · May 25, 2011, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

Frenzy = For 5 seconds you attack 33% faster. Recharge 10 seconds.
(this makes it both useable but not permanent and will not require any further penalty. Adding in PvE only skills and you can keep it up full time in PvE.)

I would consider this a nerf.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

I think they should give the PvE Warrior a better IAS, and thats about all I would change.

Warrior's have two fully maintainable 33% IAS, both are effective in PvE and both are well balanced (one is frequently regarded as the best designed skill in the game).
Absolutely nothing needs to be done with regards to these skills. If anything, a similar principle (risk vs reward) should be followed when balancing other professions for PvE as well as PvP. PvE is already mindless enough.

Voodoo Rage · May 26, 2011, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRakeman

I think a lot of people underestimate the curve of playing a warrior well. Warrior seems to have an interesting learning curve - very easy to play, very difficult to play well.

I think physicals in general are highly underrated in general by the average GW player. It shocks me how many warriors are running around with discord teams. If you get your hero bars set up right you can unleash some pretty devastating combos. Heck, I honestly think that in NM PvE (which assuredly most people play) even casters will ultimately bring more to the team as a physical (daggers for example).

DokkyDok · May 26, 2011, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Can't comment on PvP (though I'd imagine they remain useful), but in PvE they are one of the best professions, second only to the assassin.

Ensign · May 26, 2011, 12:58 AM // 00:58

I run Frenzy in PvE, and it is awesome.

Warrior is fine in PvE, it's probably the only well designed and balanced class really. Assassin and Dervish end up being one trick characters relying on a couple broken PvE only skills, and casters are still support.

The biggest issue is that it actually has a skill req; your random pug warrior with Defy Pain is a joke and close to worthless. The value of something like SoS is that it's super mindless and you can play it well drunk.

Assassins have Shadow Form, Dervishes have Dwayna; outside those tricks I prefer a Warrior over what the other classes can offer.

VikingHaag · May 26, 2011, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Warriors will never be useless, they have just been overlooked by most players...
Who doesn't remember iway? Who doesn't like seeing a tank making the PvE ele mobs waste the most dangerous spells on him?? And who doesn't like seeing the enemy getting knocked out continuosly??

Carboplatin · May 26, 2011, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Warriors make the best front-liners in Non-SC elite runs like urgoz, deep, DoA.

Aggro the entire room, ball up against the wall, mop+100b. Warriors don't need a buff.

Earthshaker is fun, but its practically useless imo. Why KD when you can kill them before they get a spell off. KDs are a waste of time.

Kurosaki129 · May 26, 2011, 02:02 AM // 02:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carboplatin

Warriors make the best front-liners in Non-SC elite runs like urgoz, deep, DoA.

Aggro the entire room, ball up against the wall, mop+100b. Warriors don't need a buff.

Earthshaker is fun, but its practically useless imo. Why KD when you can kill them before they get a spell off. KDs are a waste of time.

oh i'm sure in hard mode they cast faster than you can kill them. Don't forget KD automatically shuts down that foe, unless they can cast/attack while KD-ed (which is not possible).

Carboplatin · May 26, 2011, 04:57 AM // 04:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurosaki129

oh i'm sure in hard mode they cast faster than you can kill them. Don't forget KD automatically shuts down that foe, unless they can cast/attack while KD-ed (which is not possible).

Mesmers. Try them.

Kunder · May 26, 2011, 05:03 AM // 05:03

In PvE it seems that there are ever only two useful classes: the one with the best damage spikes and the one with the best HPS. Every other class always needs a buff because they are useless.

Thanks to this logic, we have the PvE of today. Rejoice.

Then, Anet gets the silly idea to let PvE buffs trickle into PvP. Because that Derv update totally improved PvP.

Abedeus · May 26, 2011, 06:41 AM // 06:41

Hello, my name is Ranger. I have no role on the team. I can spam AoE attacks with Splinter Barrage, but a Warrior with Hundred Blades or a Dervish with spammable aoe on auto-attacks can do it better. I can use Infuriating Heat and try to maintain Save Yourselves!, but a Warrior, Paragon or Dervish can do it without wasting a slow-casting, immobile and otherwise useless (besides adrenaline) elite skill that is a double-edged sword. I can throw spears, spam sword, axe or hammer attacks or take a scythe, but besides having a pet as an extra meat shield, primary professions for those weapons do everything better.

Missing HB · May 26, 2011, 07:07 AM // 07:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Hello, my name is Ranger. I have no role on the team. I can spam AoE attacks with Splinter Barrage, but a Warrior with Hundred Blades or a Dervish with spammable aoe on auto-attacks can do it better. I can use Infuriating Heat and try to maintain Save Yourselves!, but a Warrior, Paragon or Dervish can do it without wasting a slow-casting, immobile and otherwise useless (besides adrenaline) elite skill that is a double-edged sword. I can throw spears, spam sword, axe or hammer attacks or take a scythe, but besides having a pet as an extra meat shield, primary professions for those weapons do everything better.

I hope you're kidding right ? Last sentence especially is quite a joke , considering people did run R/A , R/P , R/D in Heroes Ascent or other PvP formats for months....I'm not even going to argue about dshot/savage/magebane... Even in PvE , due to better energy management , perma poison,easy perma IAS/IMS , easy blocks and other stuff a ranger using warrior weapons is easily twice better ( and i know what i'm talking about....)

Rangers got less useless elites than warrior for sure( and 99% of them are spirits )